Beeson Podcast, Episode #714 Pastor Cameron Thomas Date >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your host, Doug Sweeney. >>Doug Sweeney: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I’m your host, Doug Sweeney. I am joined today by my good friend and I’m proud to say Beeson alumnus, Pastor Cameron Thomas. He serves the Hutchison Missionary Baptist Church in Montgomery, Alabama. Pastor Thomas just finished preaching this morning in chapel a wonderful sermon that we’ll link you to when we drop the podcast recording. Just finished speaking to the Minority Student Fellowship. That was a wonderful time as well. And just when he thought we were going to let him rest, drive back home, or work on his sermon for Sunday or something else – I said, “Hey, Pastor Thomas, please come and be a guest on the Beeson Podcast.” It’s great to have you with us, Cameron. >>Cameron Thomas: Thank you, Dean Sweeney. >>Sweeney: Some of the people listening know you already. Beeson alums who listen and so on. But not everybody is going to know you. So, let’s just introduce you to them. Can you tell us just a little bit about how you were raised, how you came to faith, how you learned that the Lord wanted you to be a pastor? >>Thomas: Dean Sweeney, thanks again for this opportunity and time together. I’m so appreciative of the opportunity to be back home at Beeson Divinity School. I’m undeserving but not ungrateful. Really grateful for the hospitality today. Yeah, my story begins in a small town called Goodwater, Alabama. About 900 people there I think, in the most recent census. A city with one red light, about 14, 15 stop signs. With that I grew up in a small church, Hatchett Springs Baptist Church there in Goodwater. And really just developed this desire to know God, love God as a result of just the amazing church community but also family experience as well. I don’t remember a time of me not being in church. My baptism certificate displays that I was baptized at 2.5 years old. >>Sweeney: Is that right? In a Baptist church!? >>Thomas: [crosstalk 00:02:30] In doing that, people say, “Oh, did you get baptized again?” No, I didn’t. But I really believed that was really a moment in which God planted a seed. And over the past 30+ years now I’ve been growing and developing that. So, with that, I started preaching at the tender age of 14 years old. I had just made my high school basketball team. Craziest thing. It was the first Sunday in December, the 3rd, at our little country church. I had spoken before around community in town but this was my first sermon. It’s kind of crazy. My first sermon was centered around the text when Abraham had the experience with the handmaid servant, Hagar, and she’s out in the wilderness. And so [crosstalk 00:03:38] for a first sermon. Yeah. So, looking at that, really just displayed God’s faithfulness. It was there. I started preaching and ever since that day, God has graced me to be able to not only preach, try to preach rather, but just have a burning desire and love for His Church out of my tradition. >>Sweeney: When you were 14 and you were in the pulpit preaching a sermon for the first time, what was that experience like? Was this a small town church, everybody knew you, loved you, they kind of sensed that the Lord had His hand on you, and they were just cheering you on? Or were you just scared to death? What was it? >>Thomas: All of those things. So, once again, Goodwater is a small town. But I had spoken at other churches before in the local community. And so people were coming really to support and see what it is that God would do. I did not know that that night I would be introduced to an opportunity for theological education. Through a nontraditional capacity. It was a local church, Jehovah Jirah Ministries had a bible institute that was there. Let me tell you, a lady and her husband owned the local Christian bookstore, For Heaven Sakes bookstore in Alexander City. She was responsible. It’s the craziest thing. Miss Jackie and her husband. They brought me my license and they brought the license because they had to order it from the Christian bookstore. Not many preachers were coming out ... So, they were there. It was that night they decided that if I was going to go to school their desire was to support me. At the local bible institute. So, I’m 14, playing basketball, in high school, and also going to seminary – as much as I knew what it was back then. So, yeah. >>Sweeney: That sounds wonderful. >>Thomas: On top of that, Dean, I was 14 so I couldn’t drive. So, another local pastor, Pastor James R. Duke McCoy, Pastor of St. John AME Church in [inaudible 00:05:41], Alabama. Even smaller than Goodwater, right next to it. My grandmother was driving me to seminary, to the classes at the church. He said, “Well, I’ve got to go myself. I pass by your house, so how about if I take you to class.” Even on Saturday morning, taking me to class for seminary. My ministerial experience is a testament to the grace of God. That people all along the way, even before Samford University, before Beeson Divinity School, before anything else – God has placed people in my life that have not only affirmed but also literally were the hands and feet of Jesus for me to be who I am. >>Sweeney: That’s marvelous. Every once in a while I am in conversations with pastors and ministry leaders now where I’ll find myself saying things like, “I wish we had more older church people who were kind of looking out for the young people, who have been appropriately gifted by the Lord, the Lord’s hand is on them, they’re ready and eager to grow in ministry.” It’s not that it doesn’t happen, it does happen today, and that’s wonderful, but there are a lot more stories I know about personally of it happening a generation ago than I hear about it now. All right. I happen to know because I’m your friend that you went to Samford. >>Thomas: I did. >>Sweeney: How did you get to Samford University? >>Thomas: I came to Samford University on a whim and a prayer! (laughs) So, that local pastor who was responsible for me being introduced to expository preaching, Pastor Melvin Irvin whose daughter attended Samford University. He was there that night that I preached my first sermon. He pastored my paternal family’s church. So, my dad’s side of the family. He was there and supported and those kinds of things. And he had a conversation with me and he said, “If you are serious about God’s call on your life, you need to go to school and study to be the best preacher you can be.” So, in doing that, business was not an option for me. Math was not an option for me. Accounting ... nothing of that sort. I came to Samford University to be a preacher. (laughs) That’s all I wanted to be. >>Sweeney: Were you a bible major? >>Thomas: Yes, I was a religion major. So appreciative to the department chair at that time, Dr. Ken Roxboro, Dr. Joseph Scribner who taught me undergrad Hebrew, Bible, and my mentor, Dr. James Barnett who has gone to be with the Lord now. He was department chair. He was directing this program called The Pre-ministerial Scholars Program. And in him leading that program ... I did not get in as a freshman coming into Samford. Samford was the first place I experienced rejection. (laughter) >>Sweeney: I bet it was good for you. >>Thomas: It was definitely a good piece of the humble pie. But in doing that, came back a year and a half later and he was like, “Hey, we want to extend this opportunity for you to be in the Pre-ministerial Scholars Program.” Even before then I learned even more personally about Samford University through pastor Irvin, his daughter attended Samford, but through his relationship with Dr. Robert Smith. At that point he and Pastor Edward Kelly, who is also from Goodwater, he later on hired me to serve on his staff as Youth Pastor, they attended the EK Bailey ... at that point it was the International Expository Preaching Conference. And they became aware of Dr. Smith. So, guess what? My dad booked an interview, a meeting with me with Dr. Smith. (laughs) Just to learn. You’re talking about this guy, got his book and all that kind of thing, and Dr. Smith [inaudible 00:09:41] you need to be talking to the undergraduate people but Dr. Smith was in town and he was like, “I’ll still speak with him and still make space for that conversation.” >>Sweeney: Well, he’s that kind of man. >>Thomas: Yes, that kind of guy. I’m telling you. >>Sweeney: All right. Was that a significant conversation? What was that about? >>Thomas: He gave me a signed copy of “Doctrine That Dances.” What I did not know was homiletical gold at that point. That I still have to this day. He wrote a very moving message in there. So much so, I’m sure he’s forgotten it, but those words still are etched in my heart and in my memory. >>Sweeney: You finished up at Samford undergrad. Did you go straight into Beeson Divinity School? >>Thomas: Straight into Beeson. >>Sweeney: And what was that experience like for you? >>Thomas: Started Greek that summer. And let me tell you ... that was such a humbling experience. It’s in the summer so it’s on steroids. You’re meeting every day, all day, and you’ve got to catch not only the vocabulary but you also got to catch ways in which you’re translating, you’re putting together. In seminary, specifically in the biblical studies, I learned how much I did not know about the English language. (laughter) It just humbles you. >>Sweeney: Seminary will do that to you. >>Thomas: But in being able to see the power that is connected, not just simply with subjunctives and participles but also being able to see ways in which that active and passive voice changes, not just simply what it is that we say, but also looking at the epistles and the ways in which their actions are responsible to the artist but also there are actions in which are acted upon. So, being able to distinctly distinguish that has just been invaluable. Because in that capacity of being able to ... preaching is my thing and I love to study, but being able to convey and articulate. That influences illustrations, ways in which applications connect together. So, just being able to see it. Yeah, came straight into seminary. Had an amazing experience. Learned a lot about the witness of the Church. I think one of the things that is stellar about the experience here at Beeson is that when you learn you’re constantly introduced to God’s activity not only in history but also the ways in which there are some parallels in our contemporary setting. But if you don’t know that this has happened before ... and also being able to know the appropriate responses of the Church. Or the lack of response. We’ll be standing on unstable ground because we need to either learn in order to replicate or learn in order that we may reproduce something that would be the most God honoring thing appropriate for the space, place, and time. >>Sweeney: That’s good. Did you have a favorite teacher or two? >>Thomas: You know, I came to Beeson, I’m just going to be honest, for Robert Smith Jr. I just want you to know that. But I just greatly am impressed by the impact of Dr. Oswaldo Padilla. I took him for Greek 3 & 4 so the New Testament text today, I hope I did not embarrass him. But also Dr. Piotr J. Małysz. I did not know that I was coming to Beeson and would be as impacted by Dr. Malysz. There were just constant nuggets centered around ways in which to articulate in the history and doctrine series. That not only made it thought provoking but as we moved towards the 20th century, and modern theology, we were looking at it ... the ways in which theology has always had a history of trying to answer the pertinent questions. So, looking during that time, looking at ways in which you have the introduction. I knew about [inaudible 00:14:11] social gospel because of the somewhat connection with King. But I would begin to ask questions in class. I would say, okay, yes, King learns this as he’s up in seminary but how is it that we can ask the questions of the influence that he had living there on Sweet Auburn Avenue in [inaudible 00:14:32]? Did he learn it there? So, being able to have conversations with Dr. Malysz, walking up to his office, following him after class, continuing the dialogue. We try to keep in contact now as things are taking place and having questions. And Doug Webster, another homiletician who is here. Just the way in which they offer themselves to us as students. Not just simply to learn whatever the course objectives are but being able to shape and hold our hands along the way in this theological exploration. I’m reminded of Voltaire’s statement where “cultivate your own garden.” At Beeson, what happens is, is that we learn the witness of the church through history and there are ways in which we continue to expand it, but we learn the history of the church, but our faculty comes alongside us. And they allow us over these years at Beeson to sit in their gardens. What tools are they using? What ways in which they’ve been influenced and informed? And so then when we receive the consecration and commencement exercises – it says, yes, now you go cultivate your own garden. But you’ve seen what droughts look like, what tools have worked that we have had, and also some tools that we use that you probably will never use. But you know if you ever get to the point in which they are available to you you’ll know how to use them. I don’t know if that makes any sense. >>Sweeney: A lot of sense. Yeah, that’s what Beeson is all about. All right. In just a minute I’m going to fast forward and ask what the Lord is doing at Hutchison. But we’re talking about school. And you can’t get enough of it. You’re off doing a PhD now in preaching with our good friends at Truett Seminary, Baylor University. Every one of them is a dear friend. And most of them have been through preaching [crosstalk 00:16:40] things like that. So, what is that program like? How is God using it to shape you even after all these years as a preacher? >>Thomas: I must say that my experience in the PhD program has just been life changing. One key component of my experience there in the program has been centered around these travel courses. And so with these travel courses we’ve studied at Regents Park at Oxford. So, from Goodwater to Oxford. And we did a class ... it was Elizabethan and Victorian preaching. And so with that got a chance to see Spurgeon’s grave. [crosstalk 00:17:38] Also got a chance to see Tabernacle. So, being able to see that and the frame of work there. We also did a course in New England. So, we were looking at New England preaching. I was introduced and was able to study the Methodist preacher Harry Hoosier. >>Sweeney: Oh, is that right? Wonderful! >>Thomas: So, being introduced to him and learning about his story. And then finally I actually got to bring Waco to Birmingham. We did a Civil Rights and Preaching course and were able to look at Civil Rights movement as a whole. I think one of the most beneficial aspects of the PhD for me has been ... and this is what has been my aspiration throughout my academic experience and journey is that I recognized that my tradition needs a few more people who continue to champion the tradition. Not necessarily to just merely look at it as a trophy but also to stand and be critical of it, critically assess it. But also to bring to center names and voices that have been forgotten. I think of a word a faculty member just recently did, Dr. [inaudible 00:19:00] book on J H Jackson. It’s a great book. People should get it and read it. But Jackson is one of the most formidable preachers in the 20th century, in the world. >>Sweeney: Nobody talks about him. >>Thomas: Nobody talks about him. So, he does a great job. Go get the book. It inspires me to be able to say there are voices, sermons, preachers that we neglected and we neglected them because in some capacity it has not been a priority. You can only do so much, you can only write so much and all those kinds of things. But this little boy from Goodwater, Alabama is just convinced that God’s greatest witness is still stories that have not been told. And so being able to see that. I have a keen interest in looking at people ... national Baptist convention, so [inaudible 00:20:04] preacher out of Arkansas. Charles Thomas Walker, preacher out of Augusta, Georgia. And Nanny Helen Boroughs who is out of DC area, preacher as well. But being able to see the way in which ... there’s this delineation in the Black preaching traditions, more than you want to know today, but there’s this delineation and separation where everything hinges on [King 00:20:31]. So, and he’s a pivotal person, prominent preacher, but there are some people that I’ve just become so enchanted by their stories, coming out of reconstruction as well as in the period of the great migration. Talk about Charles Thomas Walker, out of Augusta, Georgia, and he is kind of postured as an accomodationist. As someone who did not desire during the great migration for people to move forward or go travel north. Kind of postured to say he wants to hold people back, he doesn’t want them to flourish. But in actuality as we look at him a little closer, he is building in Augusta, Georgia a church that its steeple in its location serves as the highest point in the city. And this is a Black Baptist congregation. So, he is saying something. Even if it’s just merely in the structure of the building. I think about another Beeson alum, Dr. Otis Deon Culver, at the historical tabernacle church in Selma. And the construction of their sanctuary is a statement in stone. And so it’s constructed over 100 years ago in the thick of Jim Crow and segregation. But they postured their front door along the street of the main highway. A Black congregation. They are saying something. And so in doing that, what are these stories? Who are these preachers? What are the ways in which they are talking and moving. It’s the craziest thing. Tabernacle and Hutchison have a history together. I don’t think we had a chance to talk about this. I didn’t find out until after my installation. One of my predecessors at Hutchison, Dr. George Washington Carver Richardson, say that three times fast, G W Richardson. His installation sermon was done by the pastor at the time of Tabernacle Baptist Church. And then here in 2023 we come back and our congregations are reunited with Dr. Culver doing my pastoral installation. So, just seeing those stories. But he is serving at that time as the pastor of Tabernacle in the throes of the voters rights movement that is taking place in Selma. So, there’s a prophetic edge. When I say “prophetic” – a willingness to gather together and explore and see in God’s Word the way in which, [inaudible 00:23:26] Black preaching, that God has a witness and a word and he is on the side of his people, even the marginalized people. >>Sweeney: Well, that’s a great way to kind of get us up to the present in your ministry in Montgomery. You mentioned Dr. King. He was even younger that you are now when he took to [Dexter Avenue Baptist Church 00:23:47] in Montgomery. What is it like being a pastor of a big prominent Baptist Church in Montgomery? You could take it any ... the church history teacher in me wants to ask you all the history, all the Civil Rights history, what’s it like stepping into that? But you could talk about it in other ways as well. What’s going on at church these days? What are the challenges? The potential for the kind of ministry you have? >>Thomas: It’s crazy that you ask me this. Being an historian and on this past Sunday by the time this is recorded, we just celebrated 125 years as a congregation. >>Sweeney: Congratulations. >>Thomas: Thank you. It’s by God’s grace. And we also burned a long term debt as well. So, now we are a debt free congregation. God is so gracious and good. But our congregation begins in 1900 and with that the congregation is growing and decides to unite, centered around the specific Hutchison community that is in downtown. We are maybe three blocks from Dexter Avenue King Memorial Baptist Church. >>Sweeney: Just on the other side of the interstate. >>Thomas: Well, not even the other side of the interstate, the other side of the interstate is Alabama State University. Which is ... but literally just up the road, along Jackson Street there. Jackson Street is adjacent to our church. It is where King’s parsonage is housed. So, I can stand at our church and see King’s parsonage. We are also within a rocks throw of Alabama State University. Which starts in Marion, like Samford University, and but also to tell you a little more about the history of our church – our church had a pivotal role in the Montgomery bus boycott. So, the pastor at that time HH Johnson was participating with the other ministers and with King as well during the Montgomery improvement association. They were working there. And so we have pictures of HH Johnson and King and Nixon and the crew. But the historical aspect of our church is that during the Montgomery bus boycott our church was bombed one night because we have members who were participating in the movement. And so I literally have a deacon right now, Deacon WJ Williams who is 101 years old. They were drivers during that time, helping people get to work and move along in the city. >>Sweeney: People who were boycotting the buses? >>Thomas: Yes, boycotting the buses. Yeah. So, they were getting ... this was before Uber and Lyft now, so there’s no technology, people are having to come and say this is where I’m trying to go and they had to get them there. So, our church has that history. But then also we have a way in which our church continues even beyond the movement and we have members who participate a few years later in the Montgomery to Selma march. So, they helped tell that story in various capacities and roles. So, at a historic church. I come there in 2023. Now, you were there at the installation. Thank you for your presence and sacrifice with being there with us. But yeah, no, my posture for the congregation has been ... our desire is not to be bound and stand merely in reverence of our history. But what is God inviting us to now? My first sermon when I got to the church was out of I Kings 17 and the brook dried up. (laughs) Do we stay here [inaudible 00:28:04] or do we go to where it is [inaudible 00:28:08]? It’s dangerous over there now. It is the backyard of Jezebel. But if God says I’ve called you there, I’m going to take care of you. Being able to have that as ... so that was the invitation to the congregation. I was like, oh goodness, they’re not going to want this kind of preaching. I don’t want to be that pastor. And so just ... we recently looked at ministries that attached to kind of what’s happening now. So, we’re right now in the throes of Black History Month. So, we are creating space where in which we have this book exchange activity. Where in which you bring a book, take a book, to promote literacy. These are books by Black authors. As other things are transpiring in the world where in which they’re trying to silence the voice, entertaining ideas around what is a way that we can affirm for little Black boys and little Black girls in our community that Black is beautiful? It’s not to say no one else is pretty or no one else is beautiful but an affirmation as a whole around that. And so seeing this as a gospel responsibility. And I say that as a gospel responsibility because truly we are image bearers of God. We have been made in the image of God. And so from our context, our skin is not sin. So, what is a way in which Black is beautiful, Black is bold. But also serving in the context ... I’m all for people who feel a passion toward multicultural churches, multi-ethnic churches, I really believe Paul and Peter were called to serve God, their capacities and functions were very different. And I’m just pro Black church, Black expression – not anti anyone, I just know that that is a way in which God has called me and led me. And I’m for everybody. I go preach at all kinds of congregations, churches, as a whole, but I do want to continue the history and the heritage and the legacy that has been so impactful for our communities through the Black church tradition. And I long for the day ... Dr. Smith would talk about the future condition, the eschaton. I long for the day for all of us to be gathered together around God’s throne. And I’m going to stand there with whoever is next to me! But being able to see that this is, in the words of [inaudible 00:30:52] for me this is soul work. I must do the work that my soul must have. >>Sweeney: That’s wonderful. We’re glad you’re doing it. In conclusion, and with all these things in mind, how can our people be praying either for you, Pastor Thomas, or for our friends at the Hutchison Missionary Baptist Church? This is a praying community. We encourage our listeners to pray for our guests even if they’ve never met them in the flesh. And I’m confident they’re doing it. How should they be praying for you? >>Thomas: I would invite prayers centered around endurance. As much joy as I have, there is a burden that comes along with it. And not to save the world. My grandmother would tell me you can’t save the world. But just as much joy ... because there is opposition that comes with learning history, telling history, but also desiring to evoke change. And so just as much joy comes with it, it is burdensome. And so being able to do that for our church I would ask for prayer that we can be all that God has called us to be. I think so many times our churches, we become stagnant because we settle. We settle for good from God. When in actuality we can experience better and the best of God. So, being able to do that. Yeah. >>Sweeney: Thank you for being with us. Listeners, we have some things to pray about. Please pray for my friend Pastor Cam Thomas and the people of the Hutchison Missionary Baptist Church in Montgomery. Thank you for tuning in. We love you. Please listen to Pastor Thomas’ sermon. We’ll provide a link when we drop the podcast episode. Thanks for tuning in. We say goodbye for now. >>Mark Gignilliat: You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast; coming to you from the campus of Samford University. Our theme music is by Advent Birmingham. Our announcer is Mark Gignilliat. Our engineer is Rob Willis. Our Producer is Neal Embry. And our show host is Doug Sweeney. For more episodes and to subscribe, visit www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast. You can also find the Beeson Podcast on iTunes, YouTube, and Spotify.